Now I care. . .
RED SOX SUCK.
For goodness’ sakes, they have so little pride that they’re beating up on 72-year old bench coaches. Pedro Martinez is nothing but a Class A Wuss. The only person he can beat up is a little old man. Martinez should be suspended for this kind of insanity. The fact that nobody was thrown out of the game after that is just pathetic.
Now I look forward to the Yankees’ utter devestation of the Cursed Sox, a team so hapless and filled with losers that they can’t win a friggin’ World Series in 85 years. Screw ‘em.
Update: Pedro should have been thrown out after he beaned one Yankee, and pointed at another in the Yankees dugout to say he was next. It’s a horrible job of officiating by the umpires not to throw him out of the game right then and there. I almost hope that the Yankees lose one game in Fenway so that they can win in NYC, and the Red Sox can get a taste of their own medicine.
BTW, how many players have been hit by pitches in this series, and on which teams? Roger Clemens — the notorious head-hunter — didn’t hit anyone. So what is the tally, then? About three Yankees hit to no Red Sox hitters? Uh huh. Who looks like the desperate team now?
October 12th, 2003 at 11:02 am
Either your comment is a bit premature or you and I were watching a different game, Augie. Yankees bench coach Don Zimmer rushed Martinez, and Martinez responded by brushing Zimmer aside. Nothing more. Seeing as how Zimmer took it upon himself to rush towards Martinez, the reaction was, in my estimation, entirely justified.
Second, Roger Clemens responded by throwing at Manny Ramirez. Just because Ramirez was able to dodge the pitch does not excuse Clemens’ intent.
Also, you failed to mention the Yankees players that attacked a Boston grounds crew member who was cheering the Red Sox. Regardless of the provocation by the grounds crew member/fan, the Yankees players in question exhibited horrible sportsmanship by taking it upon themselves to gang up on someone who was merely cheering against them.
October 12th, 2003 at 2:39 pm
OK, so Pedro threw an old man down to the ground. I’m not giving Zimmer a free pass here, but Pedro should be smart enough to find a way other than pushing/throwing/whatevering Zimmer to the ground. It is NEVER justified to throw an old man to the ground like that. NEVER. Pedro is a classless weasel.
Clemens did not hit the batter. His pitch was over the plate. Perhaps the batter should consider backing off the plate a bit. Clemens likes to pitch in there.
Now would you like to talk about Pedro throwing a ball at the back of someone’s HEAD?
And I repeat — no Red Sox hitter has been hit by a pitch yet. Trust me — if Clemens wanted to hit Ramirez, Ramirez would never have had the chance to dodge it. Pity the same can’t be said about the Boston pitchers in this series.
As for the groundskeeper — I’m waiting to hear official word on that one. I have a hard time believing the Yankees picked a fight on that one. It seems much more likely that the groundskeeper was the abusive ass.
But, hey, it’s all understandable. The Red Sox just can’t win. They can’t help it. So let them fight it out if it makes them feel better.
-Augie
October 12th, 2003 at 4:26 pm
Like Chris Rock said, “There’s a reason to throw an old man down the stairs. JUST DON’T DO IT.” Pedro was being charged, and he should have done something other than deflect Zimmer? Maybe punched him? Kicked him and put him down harder? No, he merely stepped out of the way and deflected Zimmer. Watch the tape; it’s certainly getting enough airtime. Pedro handled it in the best way possible.
Regarding Clemens, you’ve admitted yourself that due to the special circumstances revolving around the ALCS and NLCS, this is the first time you’ve paid any real attention to baseball. Clemens is as much a thug on the mound as any other pitcher out there. That doesn’t excuse Pedro (especially since Pedro’s pitch was first) but you’re clearly playing favorites in a game you know (next) to nothing about. Pitching at a batter is expected (Clemens has certainly said so himself on numerous occasions).
You say that it seems more likely that the groundskeeper was the abusive ass? Why? Because a couple of overpaid athletes are above reproach? Or you made a statement and will defend it to the point of absurdity? Two on one is OK but pushing a charging old man who has the intent to hurt you is not? If this was comics and Warren Ellis was scripting, Pedro would have shot Zimmer with a Bowel Disruptor to the applause of the crowd.
To recap:
- Zimmer is lucky he got away with making an ass of himself.
- Pedro DID pitch at the batter, but that’s the game of baseball.
- The groundskeeper was ATTACKED by two guys (two on one?! Come on, how is that OK?)
I realize you’ll refute this immediately, it’s just sad that you feel a need to comment on something you, admittedly, know (next) to nothing about. I certainly don’t comment on Meatloaf or the history of the Scroll Lock.
October 12th, 2003 at 9:07 pm
Ah, we’ve found a Red Sox fan.
For starters, I’ve been a baseball fan all my life. It’s my sport of choice. I’ve been a Yankees fan since birth, basically, and suffered through 15 years of bad teams featuring one bright highlight — my god of choice, Don Mattingly. (And anyone who says he doesn’t belong in the Hall of Fame just doesn’t know baseball. But I digress.)
I haven’t paid much attention to baseball for the past two years due to the television situation surrounding the Yankees. The games were mostly unavailable to me last season, so I lost interest. Once out of the loop, I found I enjoyed the free time more in not watching the games again this year, tho I still followed the games occasionally through the newspaper.
I was catching bits and pieces of all the games in the post season so far this year, but none of them turned into Must Watch territory until this travesty at Fenway.
Pedro did not handle it in the best way possible if a 72 year old man ends up sprawled on the ground.
Clemens didn’t do anything wrong in this game. He didn’t bean anyone. He certainly didn’t make threats to anyone right afterwards. That was Pedro, Pedro, Pedro. Besides which, I pointed out in the blog entry above that Clemens is a notorious head-hunter.
The groundskeeper situation is a really lousy one. I have no proof of what happened one way or the other. Logically, it would make more sense that the groundskeeper started it. The pitchers had nothing to worry about — they were winning. I think that, at the very least, the groundskeeper provoked/instigated the thing. And for pity’s sake, if a Yankees Stadium groundskeeper is in the Boston Bullpen taunting their pitchers and shaking his fist at them, he deserves a beating, too. So we’ll have to wait and see what happens on that.
-Augie
October 12th, 2003 at 11:22 pm
White Sox fan here who doesn’t care about either bunch of East Coast nits - but Pefro did the best he could with a 72-year-old man attacking him.
October 13th, 2003 at 9:22 am
I’m no Red Sox fan, but I have to side with Martinez on this one. If a 72 year old man charges me, he’s going down hard. I don’t care how old the person is, if it’s between me or them, hasta solonga viejito. That having been said, GO MARLINS! :-)
October 13th, 2003 at 10:50 am
My thoughts.
* Pedro Martinez beaning Garcia wasn’t “just baseball” - and his taunting of Jorge Posada most certainly wasn’t. He should have been ejected.
* Clemens has a history of being a jerk and, on occassions, has been almost, if not just as, bad as Martinez. But not here. His pitch to Ramirez was nothing more than a high pitch - it wasn’t even that inside. Even Boston’s coach has admitted as much. Ramirez should have been ejected for approaching the mound.
* Zimmer acted poorly and has admitted as much. He should have been ejected. But Pedro wasn’t quite just brushing him aside. He grabbed his head and threw him down. I’m guessing Martinez, by some counts the best pitcher in the game, and clearly a formidable athlete, could have avoided the wrath of the 74-year old and pudgy Zimmer without such violence.
* I don’t know enough to judge the bullpen incident, but from what I HAVE heard both Nelson and Garcia acted horribly, possibly criminally. The only excuse they would have for attacking the guy was if he had physically assulted them and they were acting in self-defense - and that doesn’t seem to be the case. No amount of verbal abuse can warrant attacking the guy.
October 13th, 2003 at 10:54 am
Um, yes, throwing inside is a part of the game, as is plunking the occasional batter, but throwing at the head of a batter is inexcusable — a pitcher as powerful as Pedro could kill someone that way (as Zimmer well knows — he’s got a plate in his head from being beaned during his playing career). And yes, I know Clemens has been a headhunter throughout his career, and it was no more right when he did it (and that pitch to Manny was nowhere near his head — of course the fact that Clemens knew he’d be tossed from an important playoff game if he threw at Manny might’ve had something to do with that). And don’t give me any “the pitch got away from him” nonsense. As Jeter noted, Pedro didn’t have any control problems after that pitch.
I agree that a lot of the hand-wringing over the Pedro-Zimmer confrontation is a little ridiculous. Zim took a swing at Pedro, and Pedro took him down. Could Pedro have handled it better? Probably. But it may be a bit much to expect him to take into account that it’s a 72-year-old doing the swinging when Pedro’s adrenaline is up after having a punch thrown at him.
As for the Yankees attacking the groundskeeper, as Augie notes, who knows the real story on that one yet.
Red Sox fans seem to have this idea that their team is noble and pure, and the Yanks are always evil. Horse-puckey. Both teams have their fair share of jerks (See Manny Ramirez and (occasionally) Roger Clemens) and class acts (See Nomar and Bernie Williams).
October 13th, 2003 at 12:00 pm
You know who was a class act? David Woodley.
October 13th, 2003 at 4:39 pm
As far as I can tell, nobody yet has asked the burning question, “Why didn’t Don Zimmer bounce?”
October 13th, 2003 at 5:16 pm
Red Sox fan here…don’t feel like arguing most of these points, you can guess where I side.
But one thing –>
” And don’t give me any “the pitch got away from him” nonsense. As Jeter noted, Pedro didn’t have any control problems after that pitch.”
I didn’t watch past the 4th inning as Augie himself knows, but I did watch the first 3 innings…and a lot of pitches got away from him. Pedro’s control in those 3 innings was not pin-point. Some pitches worked great - others did not. I can’t say what happened after since Sportscenter doesn;t show every pitch - just the good ones - but he was having control issues that day.
Pedro WAS pitching inside…it go away and coasted further up and inside. No way would Pedro have made that pitch. The guy on 3rd could have scored if it went wild. Pedro would have hit him on the back - and Varitek was just as suprised by it going so high as Karim was.
October 13th, 2003 at 10:46 pm
Um, Pedro just HAPPENS to lose control while pitching to the guy who drove in the Yankees’ first run of the night? You really believe that?
October 14th, 2003 at 12:22 am
Yep. After watching replays of it tonight I believe it more.
I do think he was pitching high and inside…and that pitch if it gets away is dangerous…but all good pitchers throw that.
October 14th, 2003 at 11:49 am
Thank goodness Elayne was here with the voice of reason. Whew. :)
I have seen Clemens hit players before. Remember the whole thing with him “throwing” the bat at what’s-his-face? (I hate it when names slip from my head. I hate getting old). No proof of course that it was intentional. The players are passionate and hyped up. A lot of what I saw was no different than what I’ve seen in other games. Ejection wouldn’t have made sense since it rarely happens.
I have been a Pedro fan. He can plunk me anytime. But I don’t like it when ANY pitcher throws at a player. That’s part of baseball that I don’t like. Ok. I’ve typed enough crap. All I really wanted to say was that Elayne’s comment ruled!
October 14th, 2003 at 1:04 pm
Pedro also doesn’t believe in talking to the press. Just one more reason to hate the cowardly punk. =)
-Augie